[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Video Shows Cops Respond to Hostage Situation by Killing the Hostage—No One Fired

The MLK tapes: Secret FBI recordings accuse Martin Luther King Jr of watching and laughing as a pastor raped a woman, having 40 extramarital affairs - and they are under lock in a U.S. archive, claims author

Couple accused of posing as Orthodox Jews to convert Jews to Christianity

Colorado signs bill allowing doctors to recommend medical marijuana instead of opioids

Synth Repairman Accidentally Gets High By Touching LSD Left in Vintage Buchla

Pentagon Finally Admits To UFO Investigations

Elon’s “Compelling” New Offer

Iran Is a Danger to No One

Unstoppable Domains -- Domain name seizures by law enforcement or state entities become a thing of the past

CrossFit quits Facebook, Instagram, accuses social media giant of censorship, being 'utopian socialists'

House Judiciary Chairman Nadler Falls Ill at Mayor de Blasio Event in Manhattan When Mayor de Blasio asks Nadler if he is OK, Nadler can be heard responding with a faint "no" before putting his hand over his face

The State Can't Keep Drugs Out of Prisons. How Was It Ever Going to Keep Them Out of America?


‘100%’ of illegal immigrant families being released into U.S., Homeland Security says

New Body Cam Evidence Shows Cops Trying to Cover for Fellow Cop who Murdered Justine Damond

Cop Caught on Video Harassing, Fining Flood Victims for Trying to Help Each Other

“It’s National Security Stuff” Says AGW

Buttigieg Surges as Some Voters Begin Suffering ‘Beto Overload’

Trump, Pelosi trade insults as their feud heats up

The Fleeting Feeling of Freedom

*MUST HEAR!* Pastor John MacArthur: "WE WILL NOT BOW!" (To the neo-Sodom and Gomorrah Govt Decrees)


Impeachment Should Be on the Table If Trump Bombs Iran

Video Shows Cop Shoot Innocent Mentally Disabled Man Because He Asked for a Quarter

A Man Fights Back After His Profane Rant About a Deputy Ended in Harassment Charges

Cops Raid Innocent Grandma’s Home, Mistake Grandpa’s Ashes for Heroin, Arrest Her

Elijah Cummings' Wife Accused Of 'Self-Dealing' For 'Illegal Private Benefit'

Government Generously Hands Back Two-Thirds Of The $626,000 It Stole From Two Men Driving Through Missouri

When astronauts rise from the dead (Is it possible the 1986 Space Shuttle Challenger crew never aboarded the craft?)

Adam Schitt Threatens “Enforcement Action” Against Attorney General Barr

SEN. HIRONO: I TOLD A CLASS OF 8TH GRADERS THEIR ABORTION RIGHTS ARE UNDER ATTACK ‘I told them I was coming to rally in front of the Supreme Court’

Paradise Stolen: From Perpetual War to Economic Slavery

Impeach Trump But Only for the Right Reason

Study: FDA is responsible for up to 73 million deaths since 2005

The Time Has Come for Patriotic Dissent: Stopping War With Iran Is Essential

Black man armed with AK-47 sends message to “niggaz”: Don’t f**k with my motherf**king president

Now that we know the FBI is corrupt and treasonous, it’s time to revisit the “official narrative” of 9/11 in search of the real truth


Nation Takes Break From Killing Babies To Mourn Death Of Cat

Body Cam Video ‘Missing’ from 17 Cops Who Raided 4yo Boy’s Party, Pointed Guns at Kids, Destroyed Home

City Steals Elderly Man’s Home for Having a Cluttered Yard, Fines Him $60,000

A Texas City Attorney Was Arrested and Detained for Helping Three Young Migrants on the Side of the Road

Texas Poised To Ban All Red Light Cameras

Obama’s AG Eric Holder Attacks Bill Barr: “He’s Not Fit to Lead DOJ”

Mark Cuban: No Body Can Beat Trump In 2020 As of RIGHT NOW

The Growth of the American Police State


Times Of Israel: "Stop Mel Gibson's New Anti-Semitic Movie, If Needed by Erecting New Laws"

Truckers Face Years in Prison for Transporting LEGAL Hemp

Punishing baseball fans with a high-priced publicity stunt

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

politics and politicians
See other politics and politicians Articles

Title: Three Problems for Libertarian Supporters of a Basic Income ...
Source: bleedingheartlibertarians.com
URL Source: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.co ... -supporters-of-a-basic-income/
Published: May 18, 2015
Author: Matt Zwolinski
Post Date: 2018-07-21 05:06:14 by Gatlin
Keywords: None
Views: 437
Comments: 11

Today The Atlantic published an article on the Basic Income Guarantee, with special focus on the work of Scott Santens to crowdfund a basic income on a voluntary basis. And last week, Michael Tanner of the Cato Institute published a terrific policy analysis assessing both the strengths and weaknesses of various sorts of BIG and related-policies.

I’ve written a few pieces defending a BIG from both a pragmatic and a more principled perspective. But it’s never been an issue about which I’ve felt absolutely settled. The idea of implementing a BIG as a replacement for our current welfare state faces some serious difficulties. And lately – especially after reading Tanner’s piece – those difficulties have been worrying me a bit more than they used to.

Here, then, are what I take to be three of the more pressing problems facing libertarian supporters of a BIG:

  1. Cost – There’s good reason to worry that the size of the grant provided by a BIG is either going to be too small to meet people’s basic needs, or to large to be affordable. Ed Dolan’s proposal, for instance, which is one of the better-worked out proposals out there from a libertarian perspective, clearly falls into the former category at only $4,452 per person. Other proposals like Charles Murray’s cut down on the costs but only by giving up on the universal nature of the grant, and thereby also on some of its most attractive features. Murray’s proposal, for instance, includes a provision to tax back the grant at progressively high rates after a person’s income rises above $25,000. That significantly reduces the administrative simplicity of the proposal, and also creates potentially strong disincentives to work. Michael Tanner goes into the cost-estimates of various programs in great detail, as does David Henderson in his contribution to the recent Independent Review debate on the BIG. Both discussions deserve a careful read from supporters of a BIG.

  2. What Programs to Replace? It’s easy to talk in the abstract about the BIG serving as a replacement for the existing welfare state. But exactly which programs is a BIG supposed to replace? Free K-12 public education certainly involves coercive redistribution. Is that “welfare”? And if so, would we really feel comfortable replacing it with a cash grant (which would presumably go to the parents, and not the children themselves)? What about programs for the mentally disabled? Would giving them cash really be better for them than giving them counseling services and other need-specific forms of in-kind assistance?

    I’m pretty opposed to paternalism as a general principle. But there’s something to the argument that people like Barbara Bergmann (and Tyler Cowen) make: people have lots of different and very specific needs, and simply giving people cash isn’t always a more effective way of helping them then trying to meet those needs directly. Whatever cash grant the BIG provides might not be enough to meet their needs. And if people perceive (rightly or wrongly) that the BIG isn’t meeting people’s needs, they are likely to support political measures to amend it, adding add-ons for this, exceptions for that, and so on. A BIG that replaces all or much of the existing welfare state might thus not only be insufficient; it might very well be politically unstable.

  3. Increased Xenophobia – In my the very first thing I ever wrote about the BIG, I worried that implementing would lead to increased hostility toward immigration, and therefore to worsening the situation of the poor outside the United States. Megan McArdle makes a similar point here, and raises some other serious concerns for the BIG here. Now, sure, there are ways around this. You could design a BIG that simply doesn’t apply to first- generation immigrants, or that has a kind of waiting period before it goes into effect. But the more exceptions and modifications you have to weld on to a BIG to make it practically workable – especially when those exceptions are likely to face severe political and legal challenges – the less likely it is that you’re going to get it implemented in anything like the form for which you’d hoped. The relevant comparison isn’t whether an ideal BIG would be better than the non-ideal welfare-state we’ve actually got. It’s whether the BIG we’d actually be likely to get would be better.

Now, the force of these problems depends to some degree on what one’s rationale is for supporting a BIG. And different libertarians have different rationales. Libertarians who take a pragmatic approach to defending a BIG, for instance, are going to find all three of these points especially troubling. If the point of a BIG is to meet people needs more effectively or more cheaply than the current welfare state, than the fact that it wouldn’t meet their needs, or that it wouldn’t be cheap, is going to be a pretty big problem.

On the other hand, most libertarians don’t believe that people have a right to get all of their needs met by others as a matter of justice. If, then, the point of a BIG isn’t to meet people’s needs, but rather to compensate for past injustice, or to redistribute the undeserved economic rent held by owners of natural resources, then the fact that the BIG doesn’t meet all of everybody’s needs isn’t really a problem after all. On this view, the point of the BIG is to give you the economic resources to which you’re entitled, and what you’re entitled to and what you need might be two entirely different things.

I think this response goes some way to addressing the worry raised by the first two arguments above. But then again, I’m so much of a hard-nosed deontologist that the consequences of the policy don’t matter to me. So if there are better responses to these problems, I’d love to hear them. What do you say, readers?

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: Gatlin, fake libertarian strawman (#0)

No libertarian supports BIG, they're fake like you.

Hondo68  posted on  2018-07-21   6:26:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#2. To: hondo68 (#1)

No libertarian supports BIG, they're fake like you.
The ONLY thing any libertarian has ever done BIG is make a big ass of himself.

There is absolutely nothing fake in that proclamation.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-21   11:02:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#3. To: hondo68 (#1)

No libertarian supports BIG, they're fake like you.

No libertarian supports giving everyone a basic income - that's called socialism. A five-year-old understands that - why not Gatlin?

Of course - that won't stop him from posting more of his bilge.

Apparently his desperation is getting worse with each article he posts.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

Trump: My People Should ‘Sit Up in Attention’ Like Kim Jong-un’s Staff.

Deckard  posted on  2018-07-21   11:13:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#4. To: Gatlin (#2)

The ONLY thing any libertarian has ever done BIG is make a big ass of himself.

And now we see the real reason for posting the article - to troll.

“Truth is treason in the empire of lies.” - Ron Paul

Trump: My People Should ‘Sit Up in Attention’ Like Kim Jong-un’s Staff.

Deckard  posted on  2018-07-21   11:14:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#5. To: Deckard, Gatlin (#4)

Like your articles, only different.

nolu chan  posted on  2018-07-21   11:23:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#6. To: Deckard (#4)

The ONLY thing any libertarian has ever done BIG is make a big ass of himself.

And now we see the real reason for posting the article - to troll.

Karma is a bitch…what goes around comes around!!!

LOL ...

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-21   11:30:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#7. To: Gatlin (#0)

The problem with BIG is that it is vastly expensive, and misallocates resources. MOST people get by ok, so the idea of giving money to EVERYBODY is wasteful. The people who DON'T get by ok, don't do so because of specific things.

A great number of them have specific problems whose solutions, if they are to be attempted at all, cost a lot more than BIG. Some bright guy with a heroin addiction could probably be saved and his brain put to use by society, and could earn his living quite well. But real rehab and the cost of living while getting it are expensive - much more expensive than BIG. The long term cost of NOT doing anything is either very low - the guy dies - or usually much, much higher: the guy resorts to crime and has to be incarcerated at a cost vastly exceeding the cost of rehab and support during rehab, and also the cost of the crime, of the cops and insurance to cope with crime. it would be cheaper and better for society to give him rehab and take care of his needs while he gets the rehab SO THAT he can get back out there in a job commensurate with his intelligence, and end up paying all of that expense and then some in taxes.

That is what actually makes the most economic sense long term, and certainly produces the best result socially and in terms of crime rate. But psychologically, spending money giving a "free right" to a dirt bag who got himself addicted to heroin is a hard sell.

BIG is an attempt to heal drug addiction by handing out a little bit of money. It cannot work.

Vicomte13  posted on  2018-07-21   14:30:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#8. To: hondo68 (#1)

No libertarian supports BIG …

Here are three libertarian arguments in support of a Basic Income Guarantee:

This morning, I did a short interview with the Cato Institute about the libertarian case for a Basic Income Guarantee. The immediate stimulus for the conversation was the recent Swiss proposal to pay each and every and every citizen 2,500 francs (about 2,800 USD) per month. But conversation quickly turned to the question of whether some form of basic income proposal might be compatible with libertarianism. Some of my colleagues at Bleeding Heart Libertarians have certainly expressed enthusiasm for it in the past. And over at Reason.com, Matthew Feeney recently published a short but favorable writeup of the idea.

Of course, as with any policy proposal, the details matter a lot. And the Swiss proposal is problematic in a number of ways. For starters, 2,800 USD a month means that a married couple could get $67,200 per year for doing nothing. And while it’s true that Switzerland is one of the richest countries in the world in terms of per capita income, that’s still an awful lot of money. Furthermore, the Swiss proposal seems to involve implementing a basic income in addition to their currently existing welfare system. Few libertarians would be willing to sign up for that deal. But as a replacement for traditional welfare programs, there is a lot for libertarians to like about a basic income.

Still skeptical? Well, here are three libertarian arguments in support of a Basic Income Guarantee. I begin with a relatively weak proposal that even most hard-core libertarians should be even to accept. I then move to stronger proposals that involve some deviation from the plumb-line view. But only justifiable deviations, of course.

1) A Basic Income Guarantee would be much better than the current welfare state.

Current federal social welfare programs in the United States are an expensive, complicated mess. According to Michael Tanner, the federal government spent more than $668 billion on over one hundred and twenty-six anti-poverty programs in 2012. When you add in the $284 billion spent by state and local governments, that amounts to $20,610 for every poor person in America.

Wouldn’t it be better just to write the poor a check?

Each one of those anti-poverty programs comes with its own bureaucracy and its own Byzantine set of rules. If you want to shrink the size and scope of government, eliminating those departments and replacing them with a program so simple it could virtually be administered by a computer seems like a good place to start. Eliminating bloated bureaucracies means more money in the hands of the poor and lower costs to the taxpayer. Win/Win.

A Basic Income Guarantee would also be considerably less paternalistic then the current welfare state, which is the bastard child of “conservative judgment and progressive condescension” toward the poor, in Andrea Castillo’s choice words. Conservatives want to help the poor, but only if they can demonstrate that they deserve it by jumping through a series of hoops meant to demonstrate their willingness to work, to stay off drugs, and preferably to settle down into a nice, stable, bourgeois family life. And while progressives generally reject this attempt to impose traditional values on the poor, they have almost always preferred in-kind grants to cash precisely as a way of making sure the poor get the help they “really” need. Shouldn’t we trust poor people to know what they need better than the federal government?

2) A Basic Income Guarantee might be required on libertarian grounds as reparation for past injustice.

One of libertarianism’s most distinctive commitments is its belief in the near- inviolability of private property rights. But it does not follow from this commitment that the existing distribution of property rights ought to be regarded as inviolable, because the existing distribution is in many ways the product of past acts of uncompensated theft and violence. However attractive libertarianism might be in theory, “Libertarianism…Starting Now!” has the ring of special pleading, especially when it comes from the mouths of people who have by and large emerged at the top of the bloody and murderous mess that is our collective history.

Radical libertarians have proposed several approaches to dealing with past injustice. But one suggestion that a lot of people seem to forget about comes from an unlikely source. Most people remember Robert Nozick’s Anarchy, State, and Utopia as a fairly uncompromising defense of natural-rights libertarianism. And most people remember that Nozick wrote that any state that goes beyond the minimal functions of protecting its citizens’ negative rights would be itself rights-violating and therefore unjust.

But Nozick’s entitlement theory of justice is a historical one, and an important component of that theory is a “principle of rectification” to deal with past injustice. Nozick himself provided almost no details at all regarding the nature or proper application of this principle (though others have speculated). But in one fascinating passage, Nozick suggests that we might regard patterned principles of justice (like Rawls’ Difference Principle) as “rough rules of thumb” for approximating the result of a detailed application of the principle of rectification. Here’s what Nozick has to say:

Perhaps it is best to view some patterned principles of distributive justice as rough rules of thumb meant to approximate the general results of applying the principle of rectification of injustice. For example, lacking much historical information, and assuming (1) that victims of injustice generally do worse than they otherwise would and (2) that those from the least well-off group in the society have the highest probabilities of being the (descendants of) victims of the most serious injustice who are owed compensation by those who benefited from the injustices (assumed to be those better off, though sometimes the perpetrators will be others in the worst-off group), then a rough rule of thumb for rectifying injustices might seem to be the following: organize society so as to maximize the position of whatever group ends up least well-off in the society (p. 231).

In a world in which all property was acquired by peaceful processes of labor-mixing and voluntary trade, a tax- funded Basic Income Guarantee might plausibly be held to violate libertarian rights. But our world is not that world. And since we do not have the information that would be necessary to engage in a precise rectification of past injustices, and since simply ignoring those injustices seems unfair, perhaps something like a Basic Income Guarantee can be justified as an approximate rectification?

3. A Basic Income Guarantee might be required to meet the basic needs of the poor.

The previous two arguments both view a basic income as a kind of “second-best” policy, desirable not for its own sake but either as less-bad than what we’ve currently got or a necessary corrective to past injustice. But can libertarians go further than this? Could there be a libertarian case for the basic income not as a compromise but as an ideal?

There can and there has.

Both Milton Friedman and Friedrich Hayek advocated for something like a Basic Income Guarantee as a proper function of government, though on somewhat different grounds. Friedman’s argument comes in chapter 9 of his Capitalism and Freedom , and is based on the idea that private attempts at relieving poverty involve what he called “neighborhood effects” or positive externalities. Such externalities, Friedman argues, mean that private charity will be undersupplied by voluntary action.

[W]e might all of us be willing to contribute to the relief of poverty, provided everyone else did. We might not be willing to contribute the same amount without such assurance.

And so, Friedman concludes, some “governmental action to alleviate poverty” is justified. Specifically, government is justified in setting “a floor under the standard of life of every person in the community,” a floor that takes the form of his famous “Negative Income Tax” proposal.

Friedrich Hayek’s argument, appearing 17 years later in volume 3 of his Law, Legislation, and Liberty , is even more powerful. Here’s the crucial passage:

The assurance of a certain minimum income for everyone, or a sort of floor below which nobody need fall even when he is unable to provide for himself, appears not only to be wholly legitimate protection against a risk common to all, but a necessary part of the Great Society in which the individual no longer has specific claims on the members of the particular small group into which he was born. (emphasis added)

To those who know of Hayek only through second-hand caricatures of his argument from The Road to Serfdom, his claim here will no doubt be surprising. But as my colleague Kevin Vallier has documented repeatedly, Hayek was not opposed to the welfare state as such (not even in the Road to Serfdom). At the very least, he regarded certain aspects of the welfare state as permissible options that states might pursue. But the passage above suggests that he may have had an even stronger idea in mind - that a basic income is not merely a permissible option but a mandatory requirement of democratic legitimacy - a policy that must be instituted in order to justify the coercive power that even a Hayekian state would exercise over its citizens.

Clarifications - BIGs vs. NITs vs. EITCs

I said in the beginning of this essay that in evaluating basic income proposals, the details matter a lot. But in the arguments above, I’ve mostly put those details to the side, even glossing over the difference, for instance, between a Basic Income Guarantee and a Negative Income Tax. Before I close, I want to say at least a little about the different policy options. But there are a lot of different options, and a lot of details to each. So bear in mind that what follows is only a sketch.

A Basic Income Guarantee involves something like an unconditional grant of income to every citizen. So, on most proposals, everybody gets a check each month. “Unconditional” here means mostly that the check is not conditional on one’s wealth or poverty or willingness to work. But some proposals, like Charles Murray’s, would go only to adult citizens. And almost all proposals are given only to citizens. Most proposals specify that income earned on top of the grant is subject to taxation at progressive rates, but the grant itself is not.

A Negative Income Tax involves issuing a credit to those who fall below the threshold of tax liability, based on how far below the threshold they fall. So the amount of money one receives (the “negative income tax”) decreases as ones earnings push one up to the threshold of tax liability, until it reaches zero, and then as one earns more money one begins to pay the government money (the “positive income tax”).

The Earned Income Tax Credit is the policy we actually have in place currently in the United States. It was inspired by Friedman’s Negative Income Tax proposal, but falls short in that it applies only to persons who are actually working.

The US Basic Income Guarantee Network has a nice and significantly more detailed overview of some of the different policies. You can watch Milton Friedman explain his Negative Income Tax proposal with characteristic clarity to William F. Buckley here. And for an extended and carefully thought out defense of one particular Basic Income Guarantee proposal from a libertarian perspective, I highly recommend Charles Murray’s short book, In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State.


1) Disincentives - One of the most common objections to Basic Income Guarantees is that they would create objectionably strong disincentives to employment. And those who make this objection can draw some support from experimental studies with the Negative Income Tax in the United States in the 1960s and 70s.

But the significance of this objection depends a lot on the details of the proposal under consideration, and is probably overstated, anyway. After all, with a Basic Income Guarantee, the money you get is yours to keep. You don’t lose it if you take a job and start earning money. And so in that way the disincentives to employment it creates are probably less severe than those created by currently existing welfare programs where employment income is often a bar to eligibility.

With a Negative Income Tax, the disincentives are there, but arguably at an acceptable level. After all, under a NIT if you are unemployed and then you get a job, you’re going to have more money as a result. You won’t keep all of the money. But nobody keeps all of the money they earn from their job - a large chunk of it goes to taxes. It’s the same idea here, except in reverse - hence, the label of “negative income tax.”

2) Effects on Migration - When most people think about helping the poor, they forget about two groups that are largely invisible - poor people in other countries, and poor people who haven’t been born yet (see this paper by Tyler Cowen for more). With respect to the first of those groups, I think (and have argued before) that there is a real worry that a Basic Income Guarantee in the United States would create pressures to restrict immigration even more than it already is. After all, when every new immigrant is one more person collecting a check from your tax dollars, it’s not entirely unreasonable to view those immigrants as a threat, and to be more willing to use the coercive power of the state to keep them out. That worries me, because I think the last thing anybody with a bleeding heart ought to want to do is to block the poorest of the poor from access to what has been one of the most effective anti-poverty programs ever devised - namely, a policy of relatively open immigration into the relatively free economy of the United States. Especially when one’s justification for doing so is merely to provide a bit of extra cash to people who are already citizens of one of the wealthiest countries on the face of the planet.

3) Effects on Economic Growth - Even a modest slowdown of economic growth can have dramatic effects when compounded over a period of decades. And so even if whatever marginal disincentives a Basic Income Guarantee would produce wouldn’t do much to hurt currently existing people, it might do a lot to hurt people who will be born at some point in the future. Here’s a thought experiment for the mathematically inclined among you: imagine that Americans in 1800 decided to institute a social welfare policy that reduced annual economic growth by 1%, and that the policy was maintained intact to the present day. How much poorer a country would America be? How much poorer would the poorest Americans be? Even if the only thing you cared about was improving the lot of the poor, would whatever benefits the policy produced have been worth it?

Further Reading

Tyler Cowen and Jim Manzi put forward what seem to me to be the most damning objections to a Basic Income Guarantee - that however attractive the idea may be in theory, any actually implemented policy will be subject to political tinkering and rent-seeking until it starts to look just as bad as, if not worse than, what we’ve already got. Murray’s proposal to implement a Basic Income Guarantee via a constitutional amendment that simultaneously eliminates all other redistributive programs goes some way toward insulating the policy from the pressures of “ordinary politics.” But I’m not sure it’s enough.

The journal Basic Income Studies published a special issue on libertarianism and the Basic Income Guarantee, with contributions from me , Mike Munger , Pete Boettke and Adam Martin , Dan Moseley , Dan Layman , Brian Powell , and Peter Vallentyne .


I really don’t know who is easier to debunk, you or Deckard. Well, I probably have to say you are because Deckard may have one or two more brain cells operating than you. Oh, I almost forgot Stoner....but then he counts for nothing anyway. He simply operates as an echo chamber for you groupies, like Silk does to Diamond....always saying: “That’s Right – That’s Right”.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-21   15:04:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#9. To: Gatlin, nanny collectivist, big gov socialist (#8)

Reason.com, Matthew Feeney recently published a short but favorable writeup of the idea.

You're like the more fake libertarians at reason.com. Numbskulls gonna numbskull whether Trumpkins or fake libertarians.

Carry on with your dumbass agenda.

As a supporter of the Trump big government global police nanny state, you're a socialist too!

Hondo68  posted on  2018-07-21   15:32:26 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#10. To: hondo68 (#9)

Carry on with your dumbass agenda.
Correcting ignorance through the spreading of truth can NEVER be considered a “dumbass agenda.”
As a supporter of the Trump big government global police nanny state, you're a socialist too!
Nah, as a supporter of Trump, I am identified by different key traits but “big government” is not one of those. I am one of those people in a recent study that suggests the bulk of Trump’s supporters were not old-fashioned conservatives who preach obedience and respect for authority. Rather, they were people who take a belligerent, combative approach toward people they find threatening.

Gatlin  posted on  2018-07-21   16:08:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

#11. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

, so the idea of giving money to EVERYBODY is wasteful.

Everybody except you... then it's not wasteful, it's the Jubilee - right Comrade?

VxH  posted on  2018-07-21   22:12:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Mail]  [Sign-in]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Please report web page problems, questions and comments to webmaster@libertysflame.com