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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Are we a soul, or do we hava a soul?
Source: Reasons For Hope
URL Source: https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/you-are-a-soul-you-have-a-body/
Published: Jan 27, 2015
Author: Shari Abbott
Post Date: 2019-03-21 07:09:03 by Deckard
Keywords: None
Views: 107
Comments: 18

C. S. Lewis is often quoted as having said, “You don’t have a soul. You are a soul; you have a body,” however, this saying is not found in any of his published writings.  The phrase can be traced back to a 1960 novel, titled A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter M. Miller, Jr.   The actual phrase is, “You don’t have a soul, Doctor. You are a soul. You have a body, temporarily.” [emphasis from original]

Many pastors and Bible teachers have used the abridged version of this phrase (omitting, “doctor” and “temporarily”) to emphasize the importance of man’s soul and the eternality of the soul. 

As Christians we understand the soul to be the essence of our being (Gen 2:7, 1 Cor 15:45).  The souls of man will never die.  All souls will live eternally, either by the grace of God in Heaven or under the penalty for sins in Hell.  The intention of this phrase is to focus on our identity as an eternal being, not a perishable body.

The phrase in its entirety must be properly defined, to determine the truth in the statement. We know that our fleshly, earthly bodies are perishable and therefore it is true that we “have a body, temporarily.”  However, some have considered the word “body” in a different context and consider this statement to be false.  Although our earthly body is temporal, in eternity we will have a body.

1 Corinthians 15 tells of the bodily resurrection of all who have been given victory over death, through the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.  This passage speaks of both those who are alive at the time and those who have died in Christ (their souls are in Heaven and their bodies lay in the grave).

1 Corinthians 15:52-57  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible [the earthly human body that has perished in the grave] must put on incorruption [a new and glorified body], and this mortal [those who are alive at the time of the bodily resurrection] must put on immortality [the new, glorified body].  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

We do not fully understand what the glorified body will be like.  The Bible teaches that our earthly remains will be raised (either from the grave or, for those alive, from the earth), but this resurrected body will not  be the same as the “earthen vessel” that our souls inhabited on this earth.  

Understanding how the word “temporarily” can change the meaning of the phrase, it is wise that Christian pastors and teachers omit it.  This saying is intended to contrast the immortal, eternal soul with the mortal, perishable body.  

The answer to the question, “are we a soul, or do we have a soul” is . . .  We ARE a soul!  

What do we know about our soul?

The Human Soul

1) The soul is the essence of who we are.  Man was created a living soul and his soul belongs to God.

Genesis 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ezekiel 18:3, 4  As I live, saith the Lord GOD. . . Behold, all souls are mine…

2) The soul is the seat of human emotion, consciousness, and connection.

Job 30:25  Did not I weep for him that was in trouble? was not my soul grieved for the poor?

Psalm 107:9  For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness.

Psalm 119:28  My soul melts for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word.

Psalm 119:81  My soul faints for thy salvation: but I hope in thy word.

Isaiah 53:11  He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 58:10  And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day.

3) The soul is different from the spirit.  We were created as a triune being.

Hebrews 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of [1] soul and [2] spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 Thessalonians 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole [1] spirit and [2] soul and [3] body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

4) In salvation, it is our soul that is regenerated, not our body.

Psalm 19:7  The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Psalm 34:22  The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants: and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Hebrews 10:39  But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Peter 1:9  Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Faith in Christ is lived in the soul by the power of the Spirit.  It is a relationship of unity and bond with Him that is given to us by Him when He resurrected us from death to life and gave us His Spirit.  Just as the Spirit was breathed into Adam at creation, the Holy Spirit, the breath of God, was given to us to make our souls alive and to fill and fuel us with the power of the resurrection—the power of the Living Christ.

All other religions are based on a relationship with God through the works of the body.  They teach:  serve God and do good.   Then you will be worthy and He will love you.

Christianity teaches: we are not worthy and we can never do enough good to be made worthy.  But Jesus is good!  And He is kind, merciful and loving—and He did for us what we can never do.  He loves us and He came to earth to live and die for us.  When we repented and trusted in His finished work on the cross for the payment for our sins, He saved us He forgave our sins and made us worthy.  Therefore, we can go out into the world and do good—not by our power, but by the power of His Spirit who dwells in us and works through us.  We demonstrate our love for the Lord Jesus Christ when we share His love with brothers and sisters in Christ and with those who do not know Him.

All people ARE souls.  No one’s soul will ever die. The big question is, “Where will one’s soul spend eternity?”  

The question believers should ask themselves every day is, “how, and for whom, is my soul LIVING this day?”  

Make today a “win” for the Lord Jesus Christ by surrendering to the power of His Holy Spirit and letting Him work through you.  Then tell someone about the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ today.  There are “dead men walking” all around us.  Tell them how their soul can LIVE!

For what shall it profit a man, 

if he shall gain the whole world, 

and lose his own soul? (Mark 8:36)  

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#1. To: Deckard, Liberator, A K A Stone (#0)

“You don’t have a soul, Doctor. You are a soul. You have a body, temporarily.”

I completely agree with this assessment.

The answer to the question, “are we a soul, or do we have a soul” is . . . We ARE a soul!

The Human Soul

But this is where I differ. The "human" soul?

There is no such thing as a "human" soul and I challenge anyone adhering to any religious faith that claims that souls are created as a result of human conception to explain the mechanism of how an *immortal soul* can possibly come into existence as a result of the pure biochemical event of conception (or birth, or whatever in between). That given that our idea of an immortal soul violates the very laws of thermal dynamics. (I.e. we presume souls will exist throughout eternity, expending energy needed to exist without apparent need of any energy input -- because if any energy input were required to exist then it would strongly suggest that the soul is not actually immortal).

It is, in my view, a ludicrous presumption to suggest that the formation of a new DNA set for a new human being can cause a spiritual entity (a soul) to come into existence. It is a concept that is never explained by Christianity (or Islam which clearly presumes the same) but is merely *assumed* and accepted. The assumption is that most of what we are is human and the immortal soul is just this afterglow of sorts that's left over when the body dies.

But it makes no sense. Chimpanzee DNA is well over 99% identical to human DNA. So does chimp conception also cause souls to be created? If not, why not? And would genetically engineering chimp DNA to be human DNA before conception THEN magically mean the offspring, which would be genetically human by any DNA measurement then causes this immortal soul to come into being?

And if chimps have souls, what about other primates farther removed from human DNA? If yes, what about other animals even farther removed? In short, where is the dividing line, that magical minimum of DNA likeness to human DNA that makes the creation of an immortal soul happen?

This is why the issue of evolution vs creationism is so important to fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians. The story of Genesis necessitates that there be something supernatural about human DNA that sets it apart from all animal DNA. Because if there isn't anything that is special about human DNA (i.e. we did evolve from apes) then there is nothing that makes us different from animals.

But the erroneous assumption in that narrative is that our DNA defines all that we are, including the immortal soul, that our DNA gave rise to the creation of the immortal soul. And I would agree that if that is how things worked, then yes, it creates a real problem in figuring out why we are any different from animals, and also why evolution throws a monkey wrench (ha) into the works.

Under the Newton model I subscribe to, there is no problem in this area because souls are NOT created by DNA conception. Souls are instead created in the spirit world, and come to earth to incarnate into a human body. Under this model, there is no need for human DNA to be the least bit supernatural. We inhabit the human body for its life, and when the body dies, the soul releases it and returns back to the spirit world (an alternate dimension outside the bounds of this big bang universe where the laws of physics that we know do not apply)

Under this model, evolution doesn't matter. Under this model, the vast majority of our identity is defined by the soul, and only a minor part defined by our human bodies. Human DNA, amazing at it is, is nothing special and does not create the soul. And yet, we remain supernaturally unique from animals having (being) an immortal soul. All the theological conflicts between our supernatural nature vs evolution go away.

It makes more logical sense on this particular point.

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-03-21   12:59:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Deckard (#0)

As Christians we understand the soul to be the essence of our being (Gen 2:7, 1 Cor 15:45). The souls of man will never die.

All souls will live eternally, either by the grace of God in Heaven or under the penalty for sins in Hell.

Essential subject matter.

So...a Soul that lives forever may be either the BEST news possible....OR...Worst. Twilight Zone Episode. EVER.

The intention of this phrase is to focus on our identity as an eternal being, not a perishable body.

Worth noting as well.

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   13:30:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Deckard (#0)

"For what shall it profit a man,

if he shall gain the whole world,

and lose his own soul?"

(Mark 8:36)

Apropos question to ask these days. That's a mighty expensive price to pay for a few extra orgasms, and buffing shiny breasts, cars and houses for a few decades ...in exchange for their eternal soul.

Increasingly, more and more people are making the decision to live by the hedonistic/satanic credo, "Do what thou willst shall be the extent of the law."

In other words, ONLY one's self-pleasure and happiness and power matter in this life...as no other law need apply. Moral, civil or otherwise are considered obstructions to personal happiness. Moreover, some actually now believe that it's possible to become their own "god"...NOW...and in the Hereafter.

These are also the same people who actually believe Lucifer or Satan IS "God."

The gamble of course assumes there is no God, nor Judgment Day, no eternal accountability/penalty beyond the flesh, and/or...No Soul. The flesh is thought/hoped to passing into Nothingness Forever.

Then again, some just assume that once our mortal coil expires, MANY assume that ALL will by default awaken to "Heaven", again seeing the departed loved ones, forever living in joyous bliss.

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   13:50:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Pinguinite, Deckard, A K A Stone (#1)

There is no such thing as a "human" soul...

.... and I challenge anyone adhering to any religious faith that claims that souls are created as a result of human conception to explain the mechanism of how an *immortal soul* can possibly come into existence as a result of the pure biochemical event of conception (or birth, or whatever in between).

I can cite five different scriptural sources that explain your conundrum. But then again, you'd have to accept the authority of Scripture *as* God's own Word...and also the notion of the spiritual dimension *beyond* the physical dimension or realm. You'd also have to necessarily accept the notion that this Omnipotent Creator also created man for and with His specific Purpose and to bestow man Free Will.

The "mechanism" of Human "Immortal Soul" creation?

It's purely a matter of faith; Purely a matter, dynamic AND mystery privy ONLY to God the Creator. (It should be noted that God-the-Creator has always advised man that "Mysteries" shall always apply to Him.)

Even Science must concede the following: As a result of a biochemical event ("conception" and creation of life as female egg and male sperm integrate), a separate, unique sentient human being is created out of this Creator-coded DNA.

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   14:09:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Pinguinite, Deckard, A K A Stone (#1)

1) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” ~ Jeremiah 1:5

(emphasizes God’s relationship with an unborn child)

2) For You created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be ~ Psalm 139:13-16

(The verses specifically show our relationship with God before birth as He formed us and had already planned our days to come.)

3) Yet You brought me out of the womb; You made me trust in You even at my mother’s breast. From birth I was cast upon You; from my mother’s womb You have been my God ~ Psalm 22:9-10

(Shows the beginning of our relationship starting before birth.)

4) Did not He who made me in the womb make them? Did not the same one form us both within our mothers? ~ Job 31:15 .

5) Know that the LORD is God. It is He who made us, and we are His; we are His people, the sheep of His pasture ~ Psalm 100:3

6) This is what the LORD says–He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you ~ Isaiah 44:2

(Comforts with the picture of God’s faithfulness during the formation before birth.)

7) And now the LORD says–he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength ~ Isaiah 49:5

Interestingly, these Scriptural verses also testify that WE (OUR RESPECTIVE SOUL/BEING) had ALREADY EXISTED within the Heavenly realm BEFORE conception OR reborn into flesh.

This is all of course a very abstract subject. So it's not surprising that many can't wrap their head around any of it, some of it, or ALL of it. Much of it does require spiritual discernment and belief in a realm beyond our mortal flesh and dimension.

If can't be of any great surprise that the same Almighty Creator God who created us would know EACH of us...even before we were born in the flesh. Precisely because "we" are spirits possessing SOULS. Even if that spirit within the womb never become human flesh.

According to Scripture (God's own inspired word as recorded BY man), God does not gauge our earthly lives solely from birth to death; He views us from conception onward. (Whether that conception survives till birth.)

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   14:49:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Pinguinite (#1) (Edited)

...Given that our idea of an immortal soul violates the very laws of thermal dynamics.

(I.e. we presume souls will exist throughout eternity, expending energy needed to exist without apparent need of any energy input -- because if any energy input were required to exist then it would strongly suggest that the soul is not actually immortal).

Why presume the same physical natural/universal "laws" of Time + Space + Mass + Energy created *by* God would indeed remain in effect OUTSIDE this physical realm or dimension?

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   14:53:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Pinguinite (#1)

Not even the Newton Model would consider the Second Law of Thermodynamics as affecting *its* post-physical death dimension/realm, would it?

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   15:00:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Pinguinite (#1)

It is, in my view, a ludicrous presumption to suggest that the formation of a new DNA set for a new human being can cause a spiritual entity (a soul) to come into existence.

It is a concept that is never explained by Christianity (or Islam which clearly presumes the same) but is merely *assumed* and accepted. The assumption is that most of what we are is human and the immortal soul is just this afterglow of sorts that's left over when the body dies.

First thing we must do is establish a baseline, a "starting block" if you will for life.

There are 2 major theories as to how Life began:

1) The Big Bang, in which a chaotic random explosion of material (assumed to exist already.) By any stretch, this energy required a source of its energy.

So like an infinite jigsaw puzzle, the gazillion x gazillion x gazillion pieces somehow ALL fall back into perfect place, right down to the insanely infinitesimal DNA strands, THE coding for every living thing and their cells, along with all the countless (miraculous) ways life functions and reproduces. Most of the number who believe in Big Bang, also believe in the Theory of Evolution as "Scientific Fact."

CONCLUSION: Big Bang proponents believe Nothing + Chaos = Everything + Organized Matter + Physical Laws

2) The Bible Account of Creation. The Almighty SAID it ALL into existence, including ALL living and un-living matter, physical laws for this dimension/realm. This included DNA, the seed and code for both man as well as also containing the human spirit & soul (human elements which remain immeasurable, un-quantifiable by science.)

This Infinite God is also said to have created a dimension or realm *OUTSIDE* the physical. Some say "Kingdom of Heaven" and "Hell" (or Hades/Shoel), along with a set of *moral* laws (which are both written within the human heart/spirit as well as written on physical media.

All of the accounts, events and actions are *historically* supported by 5,000 years worth of record-keeping by various and several scribes, prophets, and various eyewitness accounts. The lives and witness to Moses, of Jesus (His miracles and appearance after Crucifixion) of His Apostles and Disciples are many as well as *documented.*

CONCLUSION: God is Supernatural. Creation was a Supernatural Event. As is God's Creation. The Bible is also a historical text. Many have testified to its veracity. It is said, "The truth shall set you free."

BOTH theories are based on Faith.

BOTH theories are *assumed* and accepted.

But only ONE faith attempts (successfully) to explain the genesis of both theories. ONLY one explains life (and death) and the eventual destination of the human soul so well that arguably, tens or hundreds of millions indeed *understand* the testimony, documentation, and dynamics; And...are quite confident and comfortable with the explanation.

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   16:38:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Pinguinite (#1) (Edited)

But the erroneous assumption in that narrative is that our DNA defines all that we are, including the immortal soul, that our DNA gave rise to the creation of the immortal soul.

Human DNA, amazing at it is, is nothing special and does not create the soul.

Exactly what or whom is the basis and authority that concludes the "erroneous assumption" in that narrative...that our DNA defines all that we are, including the immortal soul"?

Our initial DNA does not create the human soul. As my prior scriptural posts attests to, the human soul exists within the presence of God even *BEFORE* re-containment within the "flesh" or "bio-shell" of human DNA.

This is why the issue of evolution vs creationism is so important to fundamentalist, Bible-believing Christians.

The story of Genesis necessitates that there be something supernatural about human DNA that sets it apart from all animal DNA.

Genesis and Creation is already Supernatural. Necessarily so.

Science can't come close to explaining a single life process and living thing from the ground up.

The account of Genesis (as well as ALL Life's existence and dynamics ) prove without a shadow of doubt the absolute certainty of "The Supernatural", i.e. God THE Creator, God THE Designer, God THE Law-Giver, God THE Almighty Judge.

God Himself clarifies His bond with man in Genesis 1:26:

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Beasts cannot make moral decisions.

Under the Newton model I subscribe to, there is no problem in this area because souls are NOT created by DNA conception.

There is no "problem" within the Bible or among Christians with respect to animals "souls" or their destination. God has with-purpose, created some animals as companionship. We'll trust God to figure out a happy conclusion for all His creatures in His Kingdom.

Souls are instead created in the spirit world, and come to earth to incarnate into a human body.

If so...BY WHOM? Or WHAT?

And why (according to the Newton Model) was it humans and not say dolphins or apes who were created within this "Spirit World", to have "dominion" over all of Creation?

We inhabit the human body for its life, and when the body dies, the soul releases it and returns back to the spirit world (an alternate dimension outside the bounds of this big bang universe where the laws of physics that we know do not apply)

By "we", do you mean our "spirit", our essence?

Does The Newton Model specify by what mechanism this "release" takes place? If I recall correctly, is there a supposed Counsel" that reviews and corrects the "wrongs" of the incarnate spirit, releasing it back into the Physical Realm only after "lessons" are learned for the very next life?

Again, The Newton Model lack an "Authority", Or "Almighty" from which their respective set of "laws" are given to begin with. Moreover, doesn't anyone challenge the nature and authority of "Counselors to delegate power, then make determinations for what may seem like a "Catch & Release" exercise of sorts for its new "Graduates"? (Or am I off base here?)

Has the Newton Model determined how its Final Destination is determined?

The soul has already existed with God. Within the DNA is a Soul, which eventually returns to its external realm; Only Free Will through the Human Spirit (if old enough) through its reactions and decisions create conditions from which we alone bear responsibility for our eventual Eternal Destinations.

Look at Human DNA as a "vehicle" of sorts for the Human Spirit and its Free Will as the steering wheel. Both drive the Human Soul toward its Final Destination.

Btw, "nothing special"? DNA??

Liberator  posted on  2019-03-21   16:46:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Deckard (#0)

No one knows when the soul enters a body. Is this vid the answer?

Bright flash of light marks incredible moment life begins

youtu.be/ovzGmRrtVys

WWG1WWA  posted on  2019-03-21   18:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Liberator (#4)

I can cite five different scriptural sources that explain your conundrum.

I expressly deny ownership of said conundrum!

But then again, you'd have to accept the authority of Scripture *as* God's own Word...

I would prefer some logic based word about this rather than a simple claim in the Bible.

The "mechanism" of Human "Immortal Soul" creation?

It's purely a matter of faith; Purely a matter, dynamic AND mystery privy ONLY to God the Creator. (It should be noted that God-the-Creator has always advised man that "Mysteries" shall always apply to Him.)

Well, according to Newton, the creation of souls has absolutely nothing to do with our humanity.

Even Science must concede the following: As a result of a biochemical event ("conception" and creation of life as female egg and male sperm integrate), a separate, unique sentient human being is created out of this Creator-coded DNA.

Of course it does. But that has nothing to do with the matter of soul creation.

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-03-21   23:27:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Liberator (#5)

Interestingly, these Scriptural verses also testify that WE (OUR RESPECTIVE SOUL/BEING) had ALREADY EXISTED within the Heavenly realm BEFORE conception OR reborn into flesh.

Then on that point, Newton and the Bible agree. And it would also support the statement that all souls incarnate into human form. And if it can happen once, why not more than once?

This is all of course a very abstract subject. So it's not surprising that many can't wrap their head around any of it, some of it, or ALL of it. Much of it does require spiritual discernment and belief in a realm beyond our mortal flesh and dimension.

I don't see it as abstract at all. But yes, anyone who does not believe souls exist could simply answer my challenge that way.

According to Scripture (God's own inspired word as recorded BY man), God does not gauge our earthly lives solely from birth to death; He views us from conception onward. (Whether that conception survives till birth.)

According to Newton, incarnation likely never happens before 3 months, and sometimes, not until just before birth.

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-03-21   23:33:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Liberator (#6)

Why presume the same physical natural/universal "laws" of Time + Space + Mass + Energy created *by* God would indeed remain in effect OUTSIDE this physical realm or dimension?

I certainly do not presume them to be the same. That souls would be immortal would in fact support the theory that the spirit world is a dimension outside of this big bang universe we are in, as the attribute of souls as immortal entities would be inconsistent with our laws of physics.

(That would certainly be the case in both the Christian and Newton models).

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-03-21   23:37:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Liberator (#7)

Not even the Newton Model would consider the Second Law of Thermodynamics as affecting *its* post-physical death dimension/realm, would it?

Newton about never gets into the differing laws of physics as I have with my questions and points, so I should emphasize these points about physical laws I'm making are my own which I infer from Newton's work. But it is clear from Newton's work that time flows differently in this universe and in the spirit world (which is consistent with Einstein's relativity theory that time is an extra dimension of space tied to this big bang universe).

So if the spirit world is a place/dimension outside of our current big bang universe, then it is not governed by our laws related to time any more than our other laws of physics (I.e. thermaldynamics).

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-03-21   23:44:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Liberator (#8)

CONCLUSION: Big Bang proponents believe Nothing + Chaos = Everything + Organized Matter + Physical Laws

That is an incorrect conclusion, as it presumes that dimensions external to our own do not exist. If there are external dimensions outside of this earthly one we are in, then something happening in that dimension could have resulted in the Big Bang creation of this universe.

Ergo it's not "Nothing" that the big bang would have come from. The big bang theory is not inconsistent with the Newton model. In fact, under the Newton model, the big bang theory would be supported as, possibly, a divinely inspired and intelligently generated event.

As for the Bible, it would seem to me that the big bang would have most closely resembled a response of the words "Let there be light" both metaphorically and literally.

2) The Bible Account of Creation. The Almighty SAID it ALL into existence, including ALL living and un-living matter, physical laws for this dimension/realm. This included DNA, the seed and code for both man as well as also containing the human spirit & soul (human elements which remain immeasurable, un-quantifiable by science.)

It may interest you to know that under the Newton model, intelligent & "divine" design of our universe and the development of animals in it is possible. These things need not be the result of random chance.

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-03-21   23:56:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Liberator (#9)

Exactly what or whom is the basis and authority that concludes the "erroneous assumption" in that narrative...that our DNA defines all that we are, including the immortal soul"?

I said it was implied by just about everyone claiming to be Christian, muslim (and I think Jewish also). Do you think most people in these categories believe otherwise?

Our initial DNA does not create the human soul. As my prior scriptural posts attests to, the human soul exists within the presence of God even *BEFORE* re-containment within the "flesh" or "bio-shell" of human DNA.

Okay, great. But if you acknowledge that, then it seems you must also agree with the statement that "incarnation" is something we, as souls that existed before our human bodies, can do.

ANd I would follow that up with the challenge: If souls can do this once, why could they not do this a second time? I suspect you may cite a scripture from Paul that "It's appointed for men once to die and after that, the judgement" (I'm pulling from memory there so may not be an exact quote of any version). But of course it seems the statement itself is made in response to the notion of reincarnation, which implies reincarnation was floated as a theory of life for at least 2000 years as well (and I think Hinduism predates Christianity so it would go back farther, I'm sure).

But if you agree all souls can incarnate one time, then is there any logical reason to say they could not do it a second time?

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

According to Newton, souls, being offspring of God, are like God, and truly qualify as "children" in even the literal sense, and like children will grow up. (And are given enormous time well exceeding one earthly life to do so).

So it sohuld be clear that there is a lot of overlap between Christianity and the Newton model.

As for the 5000 years of texts and such, I am of the opinion that the early writings likely contain a lot of metaphoric truth in them. The earliest people living at the dawn of human civilization would like us, be contemplating their place in the world, but without all the advantage of all the scientific discovery we have at our disposal today. Being incarnated souls themselves, their physical brains would have worked hard to make sense of this paradox where they would have known at the soul level that they were spiritually significant, yet also observe with their physical eyes the similarity they have with the animals around them. Animals bleed, age and die, and so did humans. So how is it possible that they were different?

And the story of Genesis evolved and developed from that: A story that is a hybrid of physical observation and spiritual awareness of their divine origins, lacking in physical truth and yet containing much metaphorical truth, that yes, the universe and the world was the product of divine creation, but not in the manner in which is plainly stated. That yes, we are children of a divine supreme being, but wrong in that it is true in the spiritual sense, NOT the physical sense.

Our human minds pretty much dominate our thought processes. Our souls (or subconscious) is pretty much overwhelmed on various subjects. This is why beliefs vary so greatly from one culture to another, and also why hypnosis can work well to calm the human mind down enough to allow our soul memories to be revealed. It would explain even the ancient account of the creation story in Genesis in how it came to be.

And why (according to the Newton Model) was it humans and not say dolphins or apes who were created within this "Spirit World", to have "dominion" over all of Creation?

Excuse me? This question shows you still don't get the point that souls are NOT human. You still have that concept locked in your head. There are no humans in heaven.

Under the Newton model, souls can wonder the universe, and do what they want, and it is in fact possible for souls to incarnate into dolphins. There is noting in the Newton model that says that cannot happen. This does not mean that dolphins "have" souls, as it is souls that may, in some cases, enjoy spending a life as a dolphin just as it is souls that have human bodies as the article above states.

If you mean to ask, why would souls be much more common in human form than in dolphin form, the answer may be that life as a dolphin might not yield much opportunity for spiritual growth of the soul. They have no hands by which to manifest actions of good or bad among their kind. Life as a dolphin would be, I suspect, quite simple. Vices would be hard to come by. Their means of communication between themselves is likely much more limited. In human form, we can do all kinds of things, good and bad, to one anther. Ergo, it is human form where we as souls can grow the most. But incarnating into dolphin form to enjoy the simple existence in that form before resuming the more complex life as human could not be ruled out under Newton.

Does The Newton Model specify by what mechanism this "release" takes place?

You refer to my statement that souls release the body upon death. No not overtly but Newton has found that it is souls that choose to "get out" of the body, sometimes even before death when death is imminent, such as when a person falls off a cliff or when dying of some mortal wound. Souls need not experience actual physical death in these cases. We already have cliches of "scared out of our wits" and "jumped out of my skin" when frightened. I would propose that these cliches are based in the reality where we, as souls, can be made to let go of the human body. Some people, particularly in eastern religions, claim to have the ability to leave their bodies. As I see it, these claims are also consistent with the Newton model as I believe it *must* be possible for souls to be able to leave the human body voluntarily, as the physical body would have no reasonable means to "lock" onto a soul.

I think we as souls are instead conditioned to cling tightly to the bodies we have incarnated into, much as a survivor from a ship sinking cling to a life jacket while floating in the ocean. And when the body dies, the soul suddenly finds it has nothing to cling to - the life vest is gone - and without that, the soul is then free to return to the spirit world.

If I recall correctly, is there a supposed Counsel" that reviews and corrects the "wrongs" of the incarnate spirit, releasing it back into the Physical Realm only after "lessons" are learned for the very next life?

In general, all correction must come from the soul in question. Free will is supreme. There is no growth otherwise. Reviews are for the benefit of the soul to understand and be enlightened as to how they can do better and continue to grow in the future. And no, there is no "releasing" by this counsel as there is no captivity or holding by them. All souls are free, and none are even forced to incarnate at all. It's why life is fair for all of us, no matter what conditions we are born into.

Again, The Newton Model lack an "Authority", Or "Almighty" from which their respective set of "laws" are given to begin with. Moreover, doesn't anyone challenge the nature and authority of "Counselors to delegate power, then make determinations for what may seem like a "Catch & Release" exercise of sorts for its new "Graduates"? (Or am I off base here?)

You are off base as it's not like that. Under the Newton model, we are all free to grow or to not grow, to incarnate or not incarnate. Lives are recommended by guides, and choices are even available prior to incarnation, but it is the soul that decides and must agree, and is free even to decline all presented options. But it is incarnation that offers the best opportunity to grow so that is why we choose to do so.

Pinguinite  posted on  2019-03-22   0:47:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Deckard (#0)

There are serious linguistic issues with the way that we translate the Hebrew into the English "soul", and even shifts in meaning in the English word from the original old English "scaela" which meant something closer to the Hebrew nephesh, and the meaning of the word once the printing press made books available to a lot more minds who then sought to make sense of it.

It's a long conversation, sorting out nephesh and ruach, in the Hebrew (literally "breather" and "breath"), and distinguishing between "psuche" (psyche) and "pneuma" (wind, spirit) in the Greek.

Our standard popular theology mashes the thoughts together, and people get tough and stubborn defending them against correction.

Because I am done looking for fights on the Internet I will leave it at that. If anyone wants to delve into these things further with me, I am not unwilling to do so, but there will be ground rules for the discussion. Otherwise, peace.

Vicomte13  posted on  2019-03-22   7:05:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Deckard (#0)

...and I pray God your whole [1] spirit and [2] soul and [3] body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thes.5:23b

As in the article I find that many Christians can't quite grasp the difference between our spirit and our soul. Whenever I would preach or teach 1 Thes.5:23 I would use a balloon as an illustration.

When we are born, our human spirit is like a deflated balloon. We have a spirit but it is deflated, lifeless, empty, not able to be used as it is intended. With our spirit in such a deflated condition our soul and body take over our life. Our soul, with all its emotions and thoughts can and often does cause us great distress. We feel an emptiness inside. And of course our body's hormones add fuel to the fire.

When we are REBORN, when we receive Christ into our life, He indwells us with His Holy Spirit (pneuma) and our human spirit becomes inflated, buoyant, alive to God! Our spirit is now inflated as it were with God's Holy Spirit. We are now God conscious and have a most intimate fellowship with our Creator. Now our spirit (in communion with God's Spirit) can lead our life the way it is intended to do. Our soul is now controlled by our spirit, bringing relief to our worried mind and troubled emotions.

These verses and others help us understand the importance of our spirit...

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God. Romans 8:16

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

...fervent in spirit; serving the Lord. Romans 12:11b

God is Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth. John 4:24

Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, Amen. Gal.6:18

watchman  posted on  2019-03-23   13:57:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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